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三分钟看懂国家自然科学基金会评

2016-02-02 彭思龙 科学网

今天上午预定9:30分参加有关国家自然基金的讨论,可能有些问题具有共性。这些天网上有不少老师就国家自然基金的各种情况作了介绍,也有不少朋友晒了自己的基金评语,可是还没有一个参加会评(自然基金会议评审)的朋友介绍有关情况,为了减少疑问,我作为今年的上会评审专家介绍一些有关基金最后阶段评审的一些情况,可能对一些希望了解更多情况的朋友有些帮助。并且这些情况据我看来,没有什么需要保密的。今年我参加了优

今天上午预定9:30分参加有关国家自然基金的讨论,可能有些问题具有共性。这些天网上有不少老师就国家自然基金的各种情况作了介绍,也有不少朋友晒了自己的基金评语,可是还没有一个参加会评(自然基金会议评审)的朋友介绍有关情况,为了减少疑问,我作为今年的上会评审专家介绍一些有关基金最后阶段评审的一些情况,可能对一些希望了解更多情况的朋友有些帮助。并且这些情况据我看来,没有什么需要保密的。今年我参加了优秀青年基金、面上、青年和地区项目的会评。优秀青年基金是一个专家组,后面三项共用一个专家组,下面是有关会评的一些基本情况,如有疏漏,请朋友们指正。

一、分组情况: 每个科学处分成若干个小组,取决于申请书的数量和预先分配的名额,每个小组16名左右专家。16名专家负责大约十几个领域,个别热闹的领域可能有两名专家分别负责。

解读:基金委的网络评审是分成领域进行评审的,同一领域的基金申请书分成若干组,每个组送给相同的一批专家进行审稿。在最后上会评审阶段,也是在同领域内部竞争,不同领域之间并不存在明显的竞争。这对于非常热闹的领域来说,竞争就非常激烈,对于某些不大热闹的领域来说,竞争就没有那么激烈。最后可能会出现,有些申请人条件并不是太强,但是由于同领域内具有相对好的竞争力而得到资助,有些尽管条件很好,但是可能强中更有强中手,最终得不到资助。选题和相应的领域非常重要,如果要提高命中率,选一个竞争不太激烈的领域很重要。

二、上会评审资格:所有的项目根据网络评审意见自动分级,根据每一个项目的评审意见,对于ABCD给予一个分值,资助和不资助也给相应的分值,比如,优先资助4分,资助3分,不予资助-3分,最后按照公式自动计算每一个项目的得分。申请书网评意见至少为三份,最多四份。排名前12%(大体如此,分成两种情况)的为A类项目,12%到35%的为B类项目,其他为C类项目。原则上,A类项目为必须资助,除非有特殊情况,后面介绍。B类项目大约有一半多点项目可以资助,C类项目不参与会评,自动不予资助。项目分级和是否上会讨论,由计算机自动给出,并没有人为干预。会评的重点就是决定哪些A类项目有没有异常,哪些B类项目应该得到资助。

解读:是否上会完全取决于网评的好坏,一般情况下,不上会的项目评审意见绝大多数是三个不予资助,如果一个项目有三位专家判为不予资助,基本上问题都较多。个别项目,网络评审意见为C类,但是如果有两名知名学者独立提出复议的意见,也可以进入会评,这种项目称为非共识项目,我们组没有遇到非共识项目。

三、会评流程:会评按照青年、面上、地区项目顺序进行,每一个类别都会按照领域,指定每一位专家负责一个领域,称为主审专家。主审专家拿到项目申请书和网络评审意见,先进行申请书和网评意见的阅读和思考。这些工作都是会议之外的时间完成的。因此,基金会评是个体力活,每天晚上都要加班看本子,写好每一个本子的意见,我每天加班到晚上10-11点,总共拿到了30多份申请书。白天就由每一个主审专家就主审的所有项目进行排队,给项目一个顺序,并根据自己分配的名额决定哪些项目可以资助,哪些项目不能资助,哪些作为备选项目。

解读:从这个评审流程看,似乎主审专家的权力很大,但是就与会的评审情况来看,主审专家的权力和责任是同等的。因为根据网评结果,项目意见已经有了自然的一个顺序,主审专家一般不轻易改变网评的顺序,如果调整顺序,需要做非常详细的说明,并且要说服其他专家认可这种调整。每个与会专家将其他主审专家的推荐意见记录下来,作为最后全体投票的参考。根据整体网评结果来看,网评结果具有很好的指标意义,基本上,网评结果好的申请书总体比网评较差的申请书质量好,B类中排名靠后的申请书命中率比较低。会评能够改变顺序的机会并不是很大,除非排在前面的申请书出现了下面几种情况被拿下:

1、个别创新点为重复,尤其是有些意见明确指出了可能与申请书创新点重复的文献,这个本子在会评中不会通过;

2、申请人在某些可疑的杂志上刊登论文,被网评意见指出,基本不会通过。有些杂志审稿不严,甚至没有像样的审稿,这样的申请书可能会有专家提出疑问。因为没有时间去看申请人的论文的内容,只能由对杂志不严肃的怀疑而怀疑申请人。个别A类项目也因为类似的原因不予资助。在此建议朋友们投稿时候尽量选择有共识的杂志,不要投机取巧,发表在一些看似容易,其实是毒药的杂志上。

3、有些创新点被指出不可行,并给出明确意见,不会通过。我们能够看到一些非常专业而具体的意见,有的明确指出了技术路线的不可行,只要出现这样的很硬的负面意见,该项目即便打分较高,也可能不予资助。

4、争议比较大,多数网评意见给的负面意见非常具体而详细,一般不会通过。有些网评意见尽管也给予资助,有了上会资格,但是给予资助的意见如果也有很多详细具体的负面意见,并且多数网评意见负面意见集中而具体,这样的项目也可能得不到资助。

5、部分内容缺失,如技术路线、可行性分析等缺失情况严重。很多基金申请人的基础较好,课题也是比较热门的课题,但是申请书撰写的不够严谨,缺少其中必要的部分,尤其是大多数情况下,技术路线不详细,可行性论证不扎实,这些都算是申请书的硬伤,如果出现这种情况,得不到资助的概率就偏大。

四、青年和面上基金是基金委的面子工程,从过程、形式到结果都基本保证了公平。有些申请的朋友认为这里面比较黑暗,这是一厢情愿的自我暗示。如果基金没有得到资助,总是在某些方面还有严重的不足。当然,也有一些比较有新意的项目得不到资助,这是正常现象。基金委资助的项目既不是最差的,也不会是最有可能获得诺贝尔奖的,因为过于独特的思路,一般不大容易获得共识性的支持。很差的项目也瞒不过4-5位专家的眼睛。说的学术一点,基金委的项目评审过程就是个带通滤波器。处于中偏高的项目容易命中,两端都不大可能。

总的来说,个人以为自然基金的透明度和评审过程的公正性是不用怀疑的,这在国家所有的计划中是独有的,这一点也得到了学术界的共识。有没有得到资助,最大的原因还是申请人本人,不管是自身的实力,申请书撰写的质量,这些才是是否能够得到资助的本质原因,其他因素作为自我安慰可以讨论,但是于事无补,与其抱怨网络评审专家的质量,不如思考自己的申请书和科研该如何提高更有效果。

后记:今年公布了所有专家的名单,也出现了个别申请人打招呼的现象。我跟一个朋友说,你打招呼某个项目,如果在没有正当理由的情况下,把别人的项目拿下,一方面,我的品质会受到质疑,同时对于网评意见较好的本子也不负责任。换个位置,如果你的本子也处在类似的情况,被不合理拿下,你会怎么想。这个朋友笑了。

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  3. [GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=2032964, encodeId=66d3203296476, content=<a href='/topic/show?id=0675e48461d' target=_blank style='color:#2F92EE;'>#科学基金#</a>, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=45, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[TopicDto(id=74846, encryptionId=0675e48461d, topicName=科学基金)], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=3c5e117, createdName=lujian, createdTime=Mon May 30 03:20:00 CST 2016, time=2016-05-30, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=1337991, encodeId=8b56133e99167, content=<a href='/topic/show?id=a6598626921' target=_blank style='color:#2F92EE;'>#自然科学基金#</a>, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=57, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[TopicDto(id=86269, encryptionId=a6598626921, topicName=自然科学基金)], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=33b92500139, createdName=12498b37m72暂无昵称, createdTime=Thu Feb 04 02:20:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-04, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62828, encodeId=9d866282826, content=有用, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=162, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=d5b91683812, createdName=vinson820801, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 16:01:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62801, encodeId=0567628015f, content=赞一个, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=117, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=90f31612316, createdName=xiaotaiyang1, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:41:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62789, encodeId=895562e89ed, content=收了, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=142, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/oLAjfB7s1ib06iaV3D9Tg5KwlM29ic8TDJMJOiarryMIZZhTjXxyRT9lffSWpWWcWojnL7ibJwcOn99ayict8FJ9ICYmNh9swD6R4E/0, createdBy=196f1683049, createdName=收获你的美, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62790, encodeId=a83d62e9005, content=有帮助, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=154, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/NUyjXTCJjo6KcicAVC1MwuHfSLw3PzIKiaSnTBUuAtRkrrxWpibukl35iciaGtBq4LYQv4ian1tPC3IdmzWI2dZ3cDC8wUg5CnBxlJ/0, createdBy=33a51675735, createdName=jiangxianchen, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62791, encodeId=ea6362e9159, content=大爱, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=154, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/oLAjfB7s1ib06iaV3D9Tg5KwlM29ic8TDJMJOiarryMIZZhTjXxyRT9lffSWpWWcWojnL7ibJwcOn99ayict8FJ9ICYmNh9swD6R4E/0, createdBy=196f1683049, createdName=收获你的美, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62792, encodeId=e75762e9282, content=赞, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=126, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/oLAjfB7s1ib06iaV3D9Tg5KwlM29ic8TDJMJOiarryMIZZhTjXxyRT9lffSWpWWcWojnL7ibJwcOn99ayict8FJ9ICYmNh9swD6R4E/0, createdBy=196f1683049, createdName=收获你的美, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62772, encodeId=e1c362e723d, content=帮助很大, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=111, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=2d331664955, createdName=老段, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 12:25:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=)]
    2016-02-02 vinson820801

    有用

    0

  4. [GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=2032964, encodeId=66d3203296476, content=<a href='/topic/show?id=0675e48461d' target=_blank style='color:#2F92EE;'>#科学基金#</a>, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=45, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[TopicDto(id=74846, encryptionId=0675e48461d, topicName=科学基金)], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=3c5e117, createdName=lujian, createdTime=Mon May 30 03:20:00 CST 2016, time=2016-05-30, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=1337991, encodeId=8b56133e99167, content=<a href='/topic/show?id=a6598626921' target=_blank style='color:#2F92EE;'>#自然科学基金#</a>, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=57, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[TopicDto(id=86269, encryptionId=a6598626921, topicName=自然科学基金)], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=33b92500139, createdName=12498b37m72暂无昵称, createdTime=Thu Feb 04 02:20:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-04, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62828, encodeId=9d866282826, content=有用, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=162, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=d5b91683812, createdName=vinson820801, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 16:01:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62801, encodeId=0567628015f, content=赞一个, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=117, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=90f31612316, createdName=xiaotaiyang1, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:41:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62789, encodeId=895562e89ed, content=收了, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=142, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/oLAjfB7s1ib06iaV3D9Tg5KwlM29ic8TDJMJOiarryMIZZhTjXxyRT9lffSWpWWcWojnL7ibJwcOn99ayict8FJ9ICYmNh9swD6R4E/0, createdBy=196f1683049, createdName=收获你的美, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62790, encodeId=a83d62e9005, content=有帮助, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=154, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/NUyjXTCJjo6KcicAVC1MwuHfSLw3PzIKiaSnTBUuAtRkrrxWpibukl35iciaGtBq4LYQv4ian1tPC3IdmzWI2dZ3cDC8wUg5CnBxlJ/0, createdBy=33a51675735, createdName=jiangxianchen, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62791, encodeId=ea6362e9159, content=大爱, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=154, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/oLAjfB7s1ib06iaV3D9Tg5KwlM29ic8TDJMJOiarryMIZZhTjXxyRT9lffSWpWWcWojnL7ibJwcOn99ayict8FJ9ICYmNh9swD6R4E/0, createdBy=196f1683049, createdName=收获你的美, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62792, encodeId=e75762e9282, content=赞, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=126, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/oLAjfB7s1ib06iaV3D9Tg5KwlM29ic8TDJMJOiarryMIZZhTjXxyRT9lffSWpWWcWojnL7ibJwcOn99ayict8FJ9ICYmNh9swD6R4E/0, createdBy=196f1683049, createdName=收获你的美, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62772, encodeId=e1c362e723d, content=帮助很大, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=111, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=2d331664955, createdName=老段, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 12:25:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=)]
    2016-02-02 xiaotaiyang1

    赞一个

    0

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    2016-02-02 收获你的美

    收了

    0

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    2016-02-02 jiangxianchen

    有帮助

    0

  7. [GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=2032964, encodeId=66d3203296476, content=<a href='/topic/show?id=0675e48461d' target=_blank style='color:#2F92EE;'>#科学基金#</a>, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=45, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[TopicDto(id=74846, encryptionId=0675e48461d, topicName=科学基金)], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=3c5e117, createdName=lujian, createdTime=Mon May 30 03:20:00 CST 2016, time=2016-05-30, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=1337991, encodeId=8b56133e99167, content=<a href='/topic/show?id=a6598626921' target=_blank style='color:#2F92EE;'>#自然科学基金#</a>, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=57, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[TopicDto(id=86269, encryptionId=a6598626921, topicName=自然科学基金)], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=33b92500139, createdName=12498b37m72暂无昵称, createdTime=Thu Feb 04 02:20:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-04, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62828, encodeId=9d866282826, content=有用, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=162, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=d5b91683812, createdName=vinson820801, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 16:01:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62801, encodeId=0567628015f, content=赞一个, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=117, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=90f31612316, createdName=xiaotaiyang1, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:41:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62789, encodeId=895562e89ed, content=收了, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=142, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/oLAjfB7s1ib06iaV3D9Tg5KwlM29ic8TDJMJOiarryMIZZhTjXxyRT9lffSWpWWcWojnL7ibJwcOn99ayict8FJ9ICYmNh9swD6R4E/0, createdBy=196f1683049, createdName=收获你的美, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62790, encodeId=a83d62e9005, content=有帮助, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=154, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/NUyjXTCJjo6KcicAVC1MwuHfSLw3PzIKiaSnTBUuAtRkrrxWpibukl35iciaGtBq4LYQv4ian1tPC3IdmzWI2dZ3cDC8wUg5CnBxlJ/0, createdBy=33a51675735, createdName=jiangxianchen, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62791, encodeId=ea6362e9159, content=大爱, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=154, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/oLAjfB7s1ib06iaV3D9Tg5KwlM29ic8TDJMJOiarryMIZZhTjXxyRT9lffSWpWWcWojnL7ibJwcOn99ayict8FJ9ICYmNh9swD6R4E/0, createdBy=196f1683049, createdName=收获你的美, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62792, encodeId=e75762e9282, content=赞, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=126, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=https://wx.qlogo.cn/mmopen/oLAjfB7s1ib06iaV3D9Tg5KwlM29ic8TDJMJOiarryMIZZhTjXxyRT9lffSWpWWcWojnL7ibJwcOn99ayict8FJ9ICYmNh9swD6R4E/0, createdBy=196f1683049, createdName=收获你的美, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 13:05:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=), GetPortalCommentsPageByObjectIdResponse(id=62772, encodeId=e1c362e723d, content=帮助很大, beContent=null, objectType=article, channel=null, level=null, likeNumber=111, replyNumber=0, topicName=null, topicId=null, topicList=[], attachment=null, authenticateStatus=null, createdAvatar=, createdBy=2d331664955, createdName=老段, createdTime=Tue Feb 02 12:25:00 CST 2016, time=2016-02-02, status=1, ipAttribution=)]
    2016-02-02 收获你的美

    大爱

    0

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    2016-02-02 收获你的美

    0

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    2016-02-02 老段

    帮助很大

    0

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