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高福谈新冠疫苗研发:灭活疫苗中国走得很快 反馈的效果也很好

2021-01-03 李由 陈正 新华网

近日,多款新冠疫苗陆续获批并开始在多国大规模接种。中国攻坚克难,以严谨规范态度进行疫苗研发……目前全球疫苗有哪些不同类型?中国的疫苗研发经历了怎样的过程?科学家对新冠肺炎病

近日,多款新冠疫苗陆续获批并开始在多国大规模接种。中国攻坚克难,以严谨规范态度进行疫苗研发……目前全球疫苗有哪些不同类型?中国的疫苗研发经历了怎样的过程?科学家对新冠肺炎病毒有了哪些新的认识?人们应如何看待疫苗的效果?围绕网友关心的热点问题,记者独家专访了中国科学院院士、中国疾控中心主任高福。

以下是采访实录:

记者:在抗击新冠肺炎疫情攻坚战和持久战中,科研人员也在实验室里与病毒“战斗”,在这个过程中他们做了哪些努力?

高福:

要防控传染病,疫苗是最后能够解决它的办法。在今年1月底2月初,中国疾病预防控制中心的病毒病所就已经开始筛选做疫苗的病毒种子。同时,在今年年初,生产企业没有实验环境,我们把生物安全三级实验室(P3实验室)借给了中国生物的北京生物制品所、北京的科兴公司来联合研发新冠肺炎灭活疫苗,在这个时候作出这么关键的决定非常重要。为什么?因为研发新冠肺炎的疫苗必须要在P3实验室的环境内进行,大家知道在P3实验室操作的时候,风险还是很大的。

记者:疾控中心自己是不制作疫苗的?

高福:

我们疾控中心是一个技术支撑部门,我们有前期的研发,但是要生产疫苗,还是要靠大的公司来做。我觉得我们疾控中心的科学家、科研人员们,他们能够有责任心、敢担当,拿出实验室快速投入疫苗研发,把这些事都揽下来了。

记者:目前全球疫苗有哪些不同类型?

高福:

目前国内外研发的疫苗有七类,即灭活疫苗、弱毒疫苗、病毒载体疫苗、蛋白亚单位疫苗、DNA疫苗、核酸疫苗、纳米颗粒疫苗。按照我们国家的五条路线来说,有灭活疫苗、流感病毒作为载体的弱毒苗、腺病毒疫苗、核酸疫苗、蛋白亚单位苗。我们国家现在走得最快的三种灭活苗都已经三期临床接近尾声,我相信在不久的将来您就会听到它的结果,据我掌握的情况应该还是很好的。此外我的研究课题组和智飞合作的蛋白亚单位疫苗,也已经进入三期临床。

我相信您下一个问题会问我,为什么美国的疫苗突然走得快了?怎么中国的疫苗又走得慢了?这很正常。为什么?首先我们中国将分离出来的病毒、测序结果都向世界公开透明了,很快进入了新冠肺炎疫苗的研发。同时,通过各方努力抗疫,很快就把武汉这波疫情控制住了,当我们把疫苗研究出来的时候,中国没有病人了,那就不具备三期临床实验的环境。不像美国,现在仍然有很多新冠肺炎病人。

当然,为什么西方不做灭活疫苗呢?灭活疫苗的生产需要生产企业具备生物安全三级防护标准,我们当时是把做实验用的P3实验室临时转化为可以生产疫苗的环境,这里有很多生物安全问题,他们没有,所以灭活疫苗这条线就没有走。

他们走的mRNA疫苗路线,这个疫苗是为癌症病人研究的疫苗,用于治疗癌症的,给病人用和给健康人用是不一样的。我不说它未来到底会不会有副作用,但至少没有排除,因为人类将是第一次把mRNA疫苗打在健康人身上,所以背后还有一个安全问题。作为一个专业人员,我们一定要分析好坏,这是一个科学的态度。就目前来讲,灭活疫苗当时布局是很好的,而且我们也走得很快,在一些地方反馈的消息来看效果也很好。

我们现在不是比疫苗谁快谁慢、谁好谁坏,现在是和病毒比,看谁能把病毒挡住,我们的竞争对手是病毒,不是欧洲、美国还是哪个国家,也不是公司之间的竞争,人类要联合起来。总书记也讲疫苗是全球公共产品,我们用公共产品去共同消灭病毒。

我个人认为,这个时候如果不同的公司、不同的国家走不同的路子,最后证明某一条、某两条或某三条最好,这对人类是好事,如果大家追着一个路线做,万一有问题呢?起初我们对新冠肺炎病毒了解太少,所以中国开始布局五条路线,大家一起来研发。我还是想提醒大家,要对中国的疫苗有信心,要对中国的科学家有信心,要对中国从事公共卫生事业的人员有信心。

记者:可能很多人最初对于疫苗的感受是“我挨上一针,然后就不得病了。”经过很多年对疫苗的认识,应该如何正确看待疫苗的效果?

高福:

如何让大家互相理解,这也是我在思考的。公众问对疫苗的质疑很正常,流感疫苗为什么每年都要打?艾滋病怎么就没有研究出疫苗。不是说一个疫苗、一针万能啥都管,不同的病毒有不同的特性,不是说疫苗不管用,大家不要去怀疑疫苗,但同时大家也要意识到疫苗防病的局限性。天花被消灭了,艾滋病还在那儿摆着呢,找不到疫苗。我们对艾滋病毒本身的认识太肤浅了,反过来说病毒是很狡猾的。

新冠肺炎病毒,是第7个感染人类的冠状病毒,人类战胜病原微生物的历史很短暂,1918年的大流感,那时候连病毒都没分离出来;SARS的时候,我们花了半年才知道病毒是什么;艾滋病毒也是花了几年时间才把病毒分离出来;这次新冠肺炎病毒,很快我们就分离了病毒、破解了基因序列,这得益于科研能力的提升和高新技术。大家也问,到了21世纪,人类怎么拿这个病毒没有办法呢?如果说新冠肺炎病毒跟以前认识的冠状病毒都一样,这个问题早就解决了,之所以现在解决不了,就是因为这个病毒有很多特殊性,还有很多科学问题留在这儿。但是现有数据告诉我们,还是有信心,能够通过疫苗把这个病至少是防控好,但不能说百分之百没有一个病人。所以大家一定要相信科学,同时也要给科学留有时间,科学的判断、科学的认知,都是需要时间的。

记者:刚才您说到在逐步认识新冠肺炎病毒,其实我们已经和它“战斗”挺长时间了,您现在有没有发现更清晰一点的规律?

高福:

我们越来越认识到这个病毒的隐蔽性、狡猾性。回到溯源问题,那是一个科学问题。一开始我们都照着MERS照方抓药,单峰驼带着MERS病毒,单峰驼和人接触传染。禽流感H7N9、H5N1,是鸡身上带病毒导致人感染了。照着动物源性疾病的方向,现在国际上都怀疑新冠肺炎病毒一定也有个动物载体。干了这么多年的病毒学,现在我也在反省自己,我们这种思维对吗?我自己亲自去武汉翻箱倒柜找动物,周围的动物也找了一圈,没有找到。有一段时间说穿山甲有冠状病毒,后来研究发现跟新冠肺炎病毒完全不一样。蝙蝠也有冠状病毒,它们很像,但是还是不一样。如果说新冠肺炎从蝙蝠来的,那一定从蝙蝠身上得找到这个病毒吧,至少到目前没有。不排除话音未落,明天有人说从蝙蝠找到了,但就目前没找到。不像禽流感、MERS一下子就找到了。

记者:新闻报道水貂感染新冠肺炎病毒,有可能是它吗?

高福:

现在的理论认为是人携带的病毒感染了水貂,从水貂再感染人,而不是说水貂一开始就感染人,由感染新冠的饲养员感染了水貂,然后从水貂又回到人,而且发生了突变。所以三个层次:常识、知识、科学。这个病毒按以往的常识、知识都已经说不过去了,给我们留下好多科学问题,那只好回到科学慢慢去研究。

记者:它可能很长一段时间都找不到吗?

高福:

完全有可能,也有可能这个病毒已经没有了,但是还没有找到它的源头到底在哪儿。

记者:这是不是也是病毒的狡猾之处?

高福:

对,从一开始到今天那么多无症状感染,这个病毒很狡猾。

记者:无症状患者自己本身不知道,但他会有发病过程?

高福:

有些人由于潜伏期长,所以表现出无症状,过段时间有症状了。有些人一直就没有症状。这种一直没有症状或者轻型病人,可能也不刺激抗体的应答、免疫应答。所以,这就开始反思英国人提出的群体免疫,可能它就不工作了。毕竟群体免疫是寄希望于让大群体接触这个病毒,好多人都是无症状或者轻型,可能无法免疫,现在看来这种策略可能也不行,也不能说百分之一百。再次说明这是一个狡猾的病毒,我们只能逐步地认识它。

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    2021-01-04 lqvr
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    2021-01-03 吴教授

    学习了

    0

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    2021-01-03 ms679070056117205

    学习了

    0

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    2021-01-03 公卫新人

    新冠肺炎,疫情何时才能消失

    0

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    2021-01-03 CHANGE

    疗效只是效果的众多方面之一,还要看对患者的获益,包括生活质量等因素共同决定效果的

    0

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